Daniel93
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Posts posted by Daniel93
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... Haven't you basically asked this question on your other post topic discussing this issue?
No. A website isn't entirely a product, it is also a service, since it had to be customized to meet the client's needs/requests. A store can potentially resell a returned item and still make a profit. You, however, can't really resell the site and you'll never get back the hours you put into the project. The answer, as others have said in your other topic, is to politely but firmly cut your contact with this client and move on.
I have . . . it was just a thought I wanted to bounce off you. Thank you.
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Hi . . .
I was wondering if anyone had a client who experienced 'buyers remorse' after they launched their site, then after a few months they wanted a refund? Is that a legitimate reason to ask for a refund though they loved the site at the initial launch?
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Been looking around and it seems that a simple email is a good as a signed contract. I have literally hundreds of saved emails that state she is happy with my work and loves the site, emails that tell me to add more things, subtract things, create new testing areas for flash, rebuild custom flash galleries, add hundreds of more photos, emails that tell me I need to create different timing according to the beat of the audio soundtrack for each and every photo since some photos need to be seen longer then others, and so on. The thing I seem to see is a progression of her loving the site and then when it is launched her friends start giving great reviews but then she seems to be picking up subtle hints that people think she is full of herself because of the site content, or if she doesn't hear back from a friend for comments about her site it is worse. Her insecurity starts to grow and then she begins to pick the site apart to the point where she says it's the worst thing that has happened to her in her life and wants a refund. Also she doesn't want to hear about my hourly fee, or the time and effort I put into it, because according to her no one in my client list would pay that amount to me in this day and age. I quoted this site out with another company and they gave me a estimate twice what I charged her. Argh . . . I am hoping I can cover myself by using this email trail.
Thank you . . . typing this out is therapeutic for me.
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Thanks guys
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Hi . . .
I ready on line that some States say an email correspondence can be as good as a legal binding contract, even if it is not signed. Is that true?
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Wow just reading this I would say that "client" had alot of personal issues before she even incorperated your services. It should have been a clue to you as soon as she started sharing personal information with you that it's time to get out of the situation. I would retain legal services and refer her to only contact your lawyer. Inform the attorney that you have lost business because of her and if she wishes to persue the matter you would like to counter sue for lost wages. Everyone goes threw one form of this or another, don't let her distract you from work and just move forward with other projects that positive and productive. good luck
Thanks frawgdawg
I learned my lesson with the personal stuff. She also used to tell me of friends that might see the site and want sites for themselves, but I was to tell them "I was too busy" since she didn't want other people working with me. God, I could write a book.
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Breathin' and relaxin'. Plus the site has been live for over two months and she decides now she wants a refund.
Thanks for all the help guys
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Hi . . .
I have a client that was doing ok in her stats, I targeting some specific keywords and they are ranking extremely high in Google, etc. Suddenly she was getting hundreds if not thousands of hits daily coming from one or two Chinese search engines. Which was to me was surprising because it is a personal web site and portfolio of a non-public figure. Anyway her stats took a tumble downward as I was building a new redesign, even though her keyword ranking is remarkably high. I do not know why all her hits were coming from China for a while and then died down. There is a redesign but not sure if that is a coincidence or not. Like I said her keywords are still going strong, just know one seems to be clicking through. The redesign has been up for two months.
Also could it be because recently Google was banned in China? Could that have coincided with her drop in stats since all these hits were coming from specific IP addresses in China. And why just China? It's almost like they were spamming her site.
Could China had banned her site because of the flash fashion photography galleries she has and that is the reason for the lack of hits? The search engine connected to all these hits was www.baidu.com. Also I noticed when I traced those IP addresses they led to baidu.com but on their site there were mentions of mp3 searches, etc. At that time I had mp3's running as soundtracks for specific pages. Now the music is all flash based. I wounder if that is why the hits dropped. There were no mp3's to pull in and those Chinese sites were attacted to the mp3s. Weird.
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Well . . . it has been 2 days after I blocked her calls and email but now I am imagining a firestorm brewing on her side. Do you think I did the right thing? The site has been live for a couple months, I sent her the final site disk, sent her directions on how to set up all her social networks and cut the cord. I know there is no contract but I am still worried about being sued. Anyway . . . this could be my OCD kicking in. I have been taking all this crap from her for the past year so I am still feeling gun shy. This thing turned from a simple redesign to a monster full of redoes and more redoes and on and on. Plus there were new addons like business card designs, and a large series of fashion portfolio covers (8.5 x 11), 20+ in all, that I had to do for her. Each with a different color photo, different font design and different abstract full color graphic design beneath the 'photo' to enhance the image. At the end she wrote me a series of great testimonials but after hearing negative comments from friends concerning the amount of photos of her on the site, comments about her being full of herself, and her poor opinion and overall outlook, this started a spiral of low confidence for her and now she says she overpaid and wants a refund, but wants me to continue on with building social networking, in her words, "So she is happy again". The keywords we targeted originally are remaining incredibly high for what they are but she is not getting the amount of visitors and click through she was expecting. Is there such a thing as a visitor base being dried up? Not sure what to do if the keywords are great and haven't changed since the redesign but her stats have fallen. Here I am still dwelling on it.
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Has anyone ever had a client how believed that their "time" was more valuable then "Yours"? That is how it was with mine. She used to always tell me this. Quite a morale booster.
Daniel
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Your client sounds like a psycho, stay as far away from her as you can. Block her emails and phone calls, she'll just make you miserable.
Yep . . . that is just what I did. Thank you all for the great advice. It was very helpful.
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Just thought I would chime in...
In addition to what others have said about using a contract (especially for large projects!) I usually include a disclaimer within the contract that explains that I have no control over the number of visitors, and that simply building a website doesn't mean it will generate traffic. This is especially important for SEO related work -- I ALWAYS explain that I can't guarantee results. Might be something to consider, just to reduce your liability in the future. Obviously just including it in the contract isn't enough though; you really need to set expectations like this at the begininning of the project.
Though I sympathise with the client's position, it sounds like you are within your rights to provide the client with the final files and cut all contact with the client if necessary. Hopefully you can catch some of the indications of a "bad client" if you run into similar situations in the future and be able to reset expectations if necessary.
Thanks Ben . . .
I did tell her there are no guarantees in the way of placement. Her keywords are in great placement though. It;s just getting people to click through. The only way to manage that is perhaps Social Media Marketing, etc. In her first site she was getting hundreds and thousands of hits a day and I don't know why. They were all coming from a search engine in China and practically nowhere else. That dropped and now she is getting 10-20 visitors I believe. I think that is not bad for someone who doesn't have a name in her field. Plus I sent her the links to create her social networking sites. So that ball is in her court now. I have no idea why she was getting all those hits from one single search engine in China of all things. Now she expects hundreds or thousands of visitors a day everyday.
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No matter how unreasonable she becomes, never ever lose your cool and always..I mean ALWAYS treat her in a professional manner so that nothing you said or did can come back to bite you.
As for suing, it quite difficult to prove her case because no complaint or issue had ever surfaced until after the project was done. I would not be surprised that someone told her she got ripped off just because she carelessly told them how much it cost.
I have always been a gentleman and polite with her, I was told that was the problem and I should have been more forceful, but I alway treat clients with dignity. My opinion is if I am arrogant I will only get that back three fold.
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I am so sorry for your troubles. I'm sure you heard this before but you should have had a contract. That being said I too had a client that was unreasonable. The client loved the finished product and approved it and all was fine. A few days later (such as in your case) he wanted a refund because he decided it was not what he wanted. This is after I made multiple changes upon his request for free. Then I got tired of the abuse and told him there would be extra charge because he signed off on it, and that's when he decided he wanted a refund.
This is what I did. I told him he has approved and signed off on the website. I also told him I am not in the business of providing free updates since it was not in his contract. And the last thing I told him is that since you approved and signed off on the website, our business is concluded. End of story.
He was pissed but he got the hint that he was abusing my kindness.
Now I don't know how well you kept every correspondence in regards to you dealing with your client, but kindly tell her that your business with her is concluded. Tell her that since she accepted the final product and approved the website that project is finished.
Your client had buyers remorse and now probably want the money back to cheat someone else or want to keep what you done for free.
This type of behavior disgust me to no end and i have the cohones to tell them to their face if I feel i have been taken advantage of.
But anyway, if the client persist in her emails explain all the things you did above and beyond the call of duty, all the extras you had to do for her and didn't charge, tell her in a nice way that she agreed and accepted the final product, tell her she will not get a refund, let her know that the constant flood of emails bothering you for a refund is a form of harassment and that our business is done.
Sometimes you just have to be firm in your position. So what if you lose her as a client? The aggravation is not worth losing sleep over.
The lesson learned from this, have a contract! Also be sure and have all correspondence from this project just in case she decides she wants to sue you.
Good luck.
jvalentin1
Thanks jvalentin1,
It helps to know we all go through this. I have been in the business for 13 years and this is the first time I had to deal with someone this needy, insulting, and . . . arrogant. I also sent the site to be reviewed by a friend of mine that has a SEO company for a review. My client freaked and told me all the content on the site was copy-written and I needed her approval before I allowed my friend to review it. I was told by my friend that if it is out in the public and live anyone and see it. The reason I showed my friend the site becasue I wanted her opinion and what she would charge for a site like that so I had some ammo to come back to my client with. If it rains it pours.
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LOL Oh my. I think you and I suffer from the same disease - being too nice.
I was curious about her method of payment just because of what a previous poster mentioned. If she paid by PayPal or credit card, she could do a charge back and then you'd have to deal with that. But since she paid with checks and I assume you've already cashed them, there should be absolutely no problem.
Fire her.
LOL is right.
What I am doing is sending her all the info she needs to set up Facebook, Twitter, and Linked-In with links concerning how to's. I am too nice and I let things slide with clients sometimes . . . but today I got an email from here saying I was actually "Mean" because I said she was not a "name" person and needed to do more SEO within the social networks since no one knows who she is and will not be actively searching for her. I was merely stating a fact but what can ya do. Whatever I say to her gets turned around against me. Sorry but it feels good to get this out. I am thinking the worst she can do I damage my reputation by contacting existing clients from my portfolio list. I wouldn't put it past her to do that.This is a great site by the way. I am glad I found it.
Oh . . . concerning the disk I am sending . . . do you recommend I send all the Flash files too or just her actual site with no Photoshop, etc. ? I value your opinion.
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Thanks Suzie . . . she paid me by check. Is that a problem? She lives 3000 miles away. I let her pay me whenever she felt fit to and then I would send her an invoice according to the payment and check number, etc. I was pretty lenient with her. It got to the point that I didn't care about the money . . . let's just finish this site already. She is the type of client where I had to listen to all her problems and situations with her husband and family. It was getting too personal and then when I withheld info about my personal life she would get miffed. I don't want to be open like that and have my family life out there with clients. It's not good at all. But I have learned my lesson. I hope.
I have lost clients because of her.
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I would just tell her straight up..... LEAVE ME ALONE, I DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH YOU!
that should do it
and NEVER do big projects without a contract! lol
Thanks for the pep talk. One more question . . . can she sue me for the 2000.00? I am going to send her the final site on disk because I just want to end this.
You guys rock . . . thanks
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Don't let this get you down, sometimes we get clients from hell but that's when you have to use your knowledge as a developer to take the upper hand!
If i were in your shoes, and i did all the work as agreed then i would remove all of the work from her host and tell her that she still has a remaining balance and the work will not be released until she takes care of the balance. If she doesn't like it then she can hire someone else to do the work or do it herself.
the problem here is that you don't have any contracts which is very important in our field......
Always have a contract and Written Documentation from a client prior to beginning a project. So that if the client wants any changes that are not specified in their documentation then you will be able to charge extra for it.
I don't care about the money. I just want her to go on with her life and leave me alone. She still wants a refund of 2000.00. The job was 7500.00 total, but I put many more hours into it. A contract would have been a good idea in the beginning of this. I can't afford to refund her money. I deserved that for all the ordeals she put me through. Sorry for being dramatic.
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You shouldn't use your clients for references. In that case, you should have your own website portfolio and ONLY use client's that you have already dealt with in the passed and have had a successful relationship in your portfolio as images or links to their website.
If your client is asking for a $2,000 refund you shouldn't even deal with her. This means that she doesn't value your hard work and dedication. Tell the client that you do not like to go back and forth with her and that she is being disrespectful so you do not wish to continue on this project.
after that you should keep the ball rolling and move on with other projects..........
Only give her the final work if you feel like it. Don't feel forced to do anything, specially if the client wants your hard work after getting a refund or even asking for one.
I have learned so many lessons with this client. Now she wants her refund AND she wants me to lead her though the set up of social media sites, etc. She definitely disrespects my work since she told me all the ideas were her ideas and I was only a tool. Which is totally wrong since I created the site, build all the progamming designed all the backgrounds and framework . . . argh. I could go on and on. I want to block her number.
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Thank you so much for all your suggestions. I contract is definitely a smart move in the future. She has even gone so far as reprimanding me for the way I communicate with clients in emails, teaching me the correct way . . . even though I have run my business for 13 years. Also she was concerned if I was working on other clients while I was working on her job. I made the mistake of including her number as a reference and when a potential client called her she said the "Hopefully he can get to your job after he finishes mine since he is tied up at this time". So because of that I didn't get that job.
I was told to send her the final disks and block her emails and number. What is your opinion on that?
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Hi Daniel,
Welcome to KS.
I'm sorry to hear you've had such a rotten experience. I've definitely had my share of that type of situation, and I vow to never repeat it. I never work without a contract and I spell things out very clearly in that contract. If my client requests something that is not in the original scope, I let them know they will be charged my hourly rate while I work on the change request. Usually that causes them to give their changes a second thought. If it's something they really want/need, they'll pay. Otherwise, they'll live with what they've got. Since you do not have a contract, I can't see how you'd be bound to issue the refund. Maybe you could let her know in as nice a way as possible that all her change requests were billed at $X/hour. Surely it all adds up. Personally, I would not offer a refund and if she ever approached me for work again, I'd probably tell her my schedule is too full or I'd refer her to someone else (though I'd hate to put that kind of client on any friend of mine
).Good luck with it!
Thank you Susie . . . she has certainly sent me through an emotional roller-coaster. She told me she doesn't want to hear about my hourly rate and that anyone my 'client base' does not justify the fee I charged. As you know she freely paid me and I have emails saying I deserved the money, adn that it's the site of her dreams. I have all her emails. It's only recently that she said I overcharged, after the comments by her friends and the lack of hits.
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Hi . . .
This is my first post so here goes.
I have a client who I have been working with for a year and I have just finished the redesign of her redesigned site. She has been the proverbial "nightmare client" and I have been holding my tongue with her for the longest time and doing my work. She expects me to be there for her at all times and send me lengthy emails daily, sometimes ten or more. Plus she spills her guts to me about all things personal and I feel more like a therapist then her web developer. This is a site for her self promotion, with many customized galleries, 500 images, fashion, art galleries, audio soundtracks for each page, etc, all the fashion galleries are filled with fashion images that she personally photoshopped and had to re-photoshop, and re-photoshop and on and on, but was extremely happy at the end of the "ordeal" and wrote me a glowing testimonial for my site, until she got some wishy washy reviews from some of her friends and family members, more concerning her being 'full of herself' because of the 400 fashion photos she had taken of herself, etc. I have optimized the site as best I could but she is an unknown artist, writer, and model, etc., and she is not getting the hits she thought she would get. She also refuses to follow my SEO directions of getting Facebook, Twitter, Linked-in accounts for SEO optimization. She is ranking particularly high for the keywords I optimized for but that does not mean people will click into her site. She needs to do Promo but she refuses to since she thinks she will get negative comments if she posts to Facebook or Blogs. Now she wants a refund of 2000.00 because she feels she paid too much. Now . . . there is no contract, and I didn't bill her outright since I allowed her to pay me when she had money as the design and building process went on. What she sent I invoiced her for as being paid for that period. The site to me is much bigger then originally planned and it feels like I build four or five sites because of all the redoes she made me do because of her poor photoshopping work. The amount of hours I put into it dwarfs the amount of money paid. If there is no contract am I still bound to pay her this refund? I want to fire her as a client but she is a little unbalanced so I might be into some abusive emails, etc.
I had a friend who runs a big SEO company look at the site and her suggestions were just what my client refuses to do and she told me that her company would have charged over twice as much for this site.
Has anyone had that type of "nightmare client"?
Sorry my first post has to be a negative one. Oh well.
Is buyers remorse a legitimate reason to give a refund?
in Business of Web Design
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LOL Infinity