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Advanced Member USA Joined: Mar 24, 2005 Post Count: 3000 Status: Offline |
Some recent threads and my latest work on a CSS positioned page motivated me to take a closer look at this page in various browsers. One recent thread: The new twist on the browser wars ...As always, LSW and TPattison got me thinking... The page I tested has no css hacks, validates as xhtml 1.0 strict, and uses an IE Conditional Statement to call an IE only style sheet correcting IE's buggy interpetation of the Float Model. While using a strict DTD will help IE6 properly render the Box Model, it does not correct floats and the IE 3Px Jog that IE causes. More on that here: http://www.digital-web.com/articles/toward_a_more_standards_compliant_ie/ and http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/threepxtest.html The problem with the fixes proposed by reknown css experts is their dependence on ie hacks. Search the forums here for opinions about the problems of CSS Hacks. So, after I tested my page using browser cam, I thought it helpful to post the screen shots. First, here's the XHTML and CSS: //START XHTML// <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd"> <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en" lang="en"> ...skipping most <head></head> content... <meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8" /> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="style.css" /> <!--[if IE]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie_style.css" /> <![endif]--> <body> <div><a name="topg" id="topg"></a></div> <div id="wrap"> <!-- sof Head --> <div id="top"> <div id="logo"></div> <h1>HEADER 1 TEXT HERE</h1> </div> <!-- eof Head --> <!-- sof Top Nav --> <div id="navbar"> <div id="nav"> <h2><a href="/">HEADER 2 TEXT HERE</a></h2> <ul><li><a href="/" class="active">Home</a></li><li><a href="furniture.html" class="inactive">LINK2</a></li><li><a href="about.html" class="inactive">LINK3</a></li><li><a href="contact.html" class="inactive">LINK4</a></li></ul> </div> </div> <!-- eof Top Nav --> <!-- sof of Main Content --> <div id="main"> <h1>HEADER 1 TEXT - TOPIC 1 INTRO</h1> <p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Duis sagittis, leo a adipiscing tincidunt, massa erat ultrices lorem, non nonummy lorem risus ac orci.</p> <ul> <li>Unordered List - item here</li> <li>List - item here</li> <li>List - item here</li> <li>List - item here</li> </ul> <div class="hr"></div> <h1>HEADER 1 TEXT - TOPIC 2 INTRO</h1> <p>Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Duis sagittis, leo a adipiscing tincidunt, massa erat ultrices lorem, non nonummy lorem risus ac orci. Integer dignissim neque tempor dui. Curabitur lacus nulla, porttitor id, malesuada ut, blandit id, quam. Fusce wisi. Aenean tortor diam, fringilla eu, placerat ut, viverra quis, diam. Vestibulum molestie. Maecenas cursus. Ut ultrices molestie justo. Donec ut sem. Suspendisse lectus. Ut condimentum sagittis odio. Cras cursus.</p> <p class="infobox">ger dignissim neque tempor dui. Curabitur lacus nulla, porttitor id, malesuada ut, blandit id, quam. Fusce wisi. Aenean tortor diam, fringilla eu, placerat ut, viverra quis, diam. Vestibulum molestie.</p> </div> <!-- eof of Main Content --> <!-- sof of Left Column --> <div id="left"> <p class="leftinfo"><b>Title Here</b><br />Click on the pictures below for more information, massa erat ultrices lorem<a href="#nogo" title="#nogo">some page link</a>.</p> <br /> <p><a href="furniture.html#blanket_chest" title="Blanket Chest"><img src="img/blanket_chest.jpg" width="160" height="110" alt="Blanket Chest" /><br />Cedar lined Blanket Chest built with cherry wood</a></p> <br /> <p><a href="furniture.html#tea_table" title="Tea Table"><img src="img/tea_table.jpg" width="160" height="100" alt="Tea Table" /><br />Oval Tea Table with decorative wood inlay</a></p> <br /> <p><a href="furniture.html#end_table" title="End Table"><img src="img/end_table.jpg" width="160" height="226" alt="End table with dove tail drawers" /><br />Family room table with tapered legs and beaded drawer fronts</a></p> <br /> <p class="topg"><a href="#topg" title="Top of page" class="topglink">Top of page</a></p> <br /> </div> <!-- eof of Left Column --> </div> <!-- eof of id Wrap --> <!-- sof Footer --> <div id="footer"> <!-- sof Bottom Nav --> <div id="botnav"> <ul><li><a href="/" class="active">Home</a></li><li><a href="furniture.html" class="inactive">LINK2</a></li><li><a href="about.html" class="inactive">LINK3</a></li><li><a href="contact.html" class="inactive">LINK4</a></li></ul> </div> <!-- eof Bottom Nav --> <p>Copyright © 2005 <a href="URL" title="TITLE" rel="external" class="extlink">CONTENT</a> All rights reserved.</p> <div class="fade">Website development by <a href="http://mainewebworks.com" title="Common sense web development" rel="external" class="extlink">MaineWebworks</a></div> </div> <!-- eof Footer --> </body> //START CSS// body{ margin:0; padding:0; background:#FFF url(img/top.gif) repeat-x; color:#575757; font:100%/16px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif; } h1{ margin:0; padding:0; color:#456dba; background:transparent; font:bold 1.5em Arial,Sans-Serif; letter-spacing:-1px; } h2{ margin:0; padding:3px 0 6px 0; color:#a9531c; background:inherit; font:bold 90% Georgia,Times,'Times New Roman',Serif; text-transform:uppercase; } p{ margin:0; padding:2px 0 5px; } #wrap{ margin:0 auto; padding:0; width:765px; } #top{ margin:0; padding:0; width:100%; height:120px; } #top h1{ margin:-55px 0 0 335px; padding:0; font-size:140%; } #logo{ margin:0; padding:0; width:271px; background:transparent url(img/logo.jpg) no-repeat 0 7px; color:inherit; height:107px; } #navbar{ margin:0 0 0 24px; padding:0; background:#fff url(img/nav.gif) no-repeat; color:inherit; height:30px; } #nav{ display:inline; } #nav h2{ margin:0px 0 0 11px; display:inline; font-size:77%; line-height:2.3em; } #nav h2 a{ color:#a9531c; background:transparent; } #nav ul{ margin:0 0 0 80px; padding:0; list-style-type:none; display:inline; } #footer ul{ margin:10px 0 0 0; padding:10px 0 0 0; list-style-type:none; display:inline; } #nav li,#footer li{ list-style-type:none; display:inline; } #nav li a,#nav li a:visited,#footer li a,#footer li a:visited{ margin:0px 20px 0 0; color:#a9531c; background:transparent; font-weight:bold; text-decoration:none; } #nav li a:active,#nav li a:active .active,#footer li a:active,#footer li a:active .active{ padding-bottom:0px; border-bottom:3px solid #456dba; color:#456dba; background:#d1ddf2; } #main{ margin:0; padding:14px; width:490px; float:right; background:transparent; color:inherit; } #main p,#main h1{ padding-left:15px; padding-right:10px; } #left{ margin:0 0 10px 24px; padding:0 15px; width:192px; float:left; color:inherit; background:#DADADA; } #left h2{ padding:0 0 2px 0; color:#a9531c; background:transparent; font-size:85%; text-align:center; } #left p{ padding:5px; border:1px dotted #575757; color:inherit; background:#fff; font-size:80%; text-align:center; } #left img{ padding-bottom:3px; color:inherit; background:#fff; } #left p.leftinfo{ margin:0; padding:0; border:0; color:#333; background:#dadada; font:95% "Courier New",Courier,monospace; word-spacing:-3.5px; letter-spacing:-.5px; } #left p.topg{ margin:0; border:0; color:#456dba; background:#dadada; } #footer{ clear:both;/* needed for Mozilla */ margin:5px 0 0 0; padding:0; background:#fff url(img/footbck.gif) repeat-x; color:inherit; text-align:center; height:80px; } #footer p{ margin:2px 0 5px 0; padding:0; font-size:75%; text-align:center; line-height:2.5em; } #botnav{ padding-top:8px; } .infobox{ margin-top:20px; padding:5px 0 15px 0; width:450px; background:url(img/boxbot.gif) #f2f2f2 repeat-x bottom left; color:#626262; } Next - the browser shots... This post was long enough... ![]() ---------------------------------------- "The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo Save the developers<!> Maine Webworks ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by shelfimage at Feb 23, 2006 3:14:41 PM] |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Mar 24, 2005 Post Count: 3000 Status: Offline |
This is how it looks correctly - IE6.0 on WinXP (looks the same as FF 1.5 b/c of an IE only style sheet) ![]() Larger image The Web page: http://quarterpointfurniture.com/ ------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- Here's what happens in IE4.0 (Win98) ![]() Larger image Almost all formatting is lost. The left column and the main content areas are intact, but the menus don't respond to the CSS2 postioning. Also the biggest problem is the text is "right-aligned." Maybe b/c it is in a float:right <div>. ------------------------------------------------------- Here's IE5.0 (Win2K) ![]() Larger image All content is shifted to the left and ignores the width I set for the #wrap. Note that I didn't use a text-align:center or something for positioning. The positioning is created by the wrap declaring itself as 765px. Also, the Navigation rules are mostly ignored, so the links do not position or look correctly. ------------------------------------------------------- IE5.5 (Win2K) ![]() Larger image Not as buggy as IE5.0. I'm happy with this result. There is still that larger than specified white space between the left column and the main content area. ------------------------------------------------------- IE5.2 on mac OSX10.3 ![]() Larger image This is odd. It does so much right, yet enough wrong to be upsetting. Where's the logo, the nav bar? They are background images like the top section image, but they don't show...? It might have been a bad page load on Browser Cam, but I didn't test it again yet. ------------------------------------------------------- Before going to IE7beta2, here's quite possibly the Ugliest web page I've seen. How it looks on NS4.78 (win2K) ![]() Larger Image EGADS! so that is why folks were up in arms about designing for IE 5 or NS 4! Well, I can probably help some of that by being specific about bg and foreground colors instead of using transparent and inherit - maybe. ------------------------------------------------------- IE7 beta2 public release on WinXP pro... Drum roll please. (Not even a clap is heard... ? how bout a prayer? ![]() Larger Image Well, it looks like I need to set my conditional stement to be IE browser version 6 and older. THAT's Easy! Back to work... - ***EDIT: the mac ie5.2 doesn't show the background images - it wasn't a bad page load as I had hoped... - ---------------------------------------- "The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo Save the developers<!> Maine Webworks ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by shelfimage at Feb 24, 2006 1:58:40 PM] |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Post Count: 6287 Status: Offline |
Great! Good post. IE 4, 5.0, NN 4.7 were all created before CSS-P really was out. That is why you have the problems with those. IE 5.2 Mac (the last IE for Mac) is technically IE5.0 Win, however it did do some things alot better than 5.0, including CSS. But in the end it to is to old to really deal well with it. One way to deal with NN 4.7 and IE4 is to use @import rather than link. That in not recognized, so ignored. So:
Also NN4.7 did things differently. Tables were not autmatically transparent as with IE. If you defined a table with a background, all tables would repeat it each time. It is good practice for the old browsers to always define foreground and background colors to be sure that text is always visible, that also goes for modern browers, in case a image or something does not load. IE 5.2 is still used by Mac users who use M$N grups and the like, but not as the primary browser for general surfing. It should not be ignored, but I would not bust my butt for a perfect match in it, just be sure it is useable. It was the last IE so it will be around a while longer but not in great numbers. IE5.0 is dead, IE5.5 I would ensure it is useable, but not perfect. NN4.7 is generally dead, have not seen one in any of my sites or customer sites in years. Earlier some users of old weak PCs still used it, but with Firefox, NN 4.7 is dead as firefox will work on weak Machines. It is hopeless with CSS, so I just use import and if I have a 4.7 user he will get a plain text version of my site. ---------------------------------------- Gu.aal kwsh� yak'�i it�akw ijeet wugood�k LSW-WebDesign.com |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Mar 24, 2005 Post Count: 3000 Status: Offline |
Cool. I plan on trying a few things and then post an update here with screen shots. I'm mostly interested in keeping sites usable in IE5.2 mac, and IE5.5 - 7 win. There are so few that have NS4.78 (or NS anymore for that matter) and even fewer with 4.0 or 5.0. But, I still see those occasionally when I'm repairing PC's that don't have high-speed connections. The owners just never upgraded. IE5.5 is still out there in numbers b/c of the win98/winME folks that have dial-up and don't keep the system up to date. I've also seen many workplaces that stick with the older browsers out of pure ignorance or lack of in-house support. Often the worker is told not to download the automatic updates. Some just never bother. So, you'll find many businesses with multiple work stations running Win NT with IE 5.5 for example. Poor Shmucks. I'm amazed that mac users, especially those that use macs for print media, are using IE5.2 instead of a native browser. It shows the power of social branding. Poor Sheep. Do you think they care? The Unnerds. The undead are thoughtless and have a disregard for life, right? So the unnerd have a disregard for the technological heartbeat. Sometimes they possess contempt for it. It must be late... - ---------------------------------------- "The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo Save the developers<!> Maine Webworks |
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Advanced Member UK Joined: Dec 29, 2004 Post Count: 1662 Status: Offline |
Fantastic post! ![]() You can't please everyone at the same time. I don't think its worth catering for very old browsers which are upgradable on a particular OS. By this I mean, if most versions of Windows (98 and up) support IE6, then why care about how web pages look in IE5? Or, if an OS will only run IE 5.5 or less, but will run Firefox1.0, then why worry about IE5?I'm looking for a webpage which lists what OSs support what browsers - no luck at the moment. Tim ---------------------------------------- Pavonis Mons | Listen of the week: "Residue of Desire" by Acumen |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Post Count: 6287 Status: Offline |
I had one for the Mac, but misplaced it. I will see if I can find the link again. IE 5.2 Mac, IE5.0, NN 4.7 are all to old for modern CSS design. Weak links are fine, but we should not allow a bunch of "Virtual Rednecks" get in the way of progress. I do not want to wasite time on people to ignorant or lazy to upgrade their browsers. Weak systems can still run Firefox. They simply must have realized by this point in time that they are on outdated browsers. They must see many sites broken becase of it. So as a matter of accessibility, i will do my best to see that the content is available to them... but I will not spend my ime or the customers money or go back to outdate designs just to cater to them. They will get the content, but if they want it pretty, upgrade, all the browsers are free. ---------------------------------------- Gu.aal kwsh� yak'�i it�akw ijeet wugood�k LSW-WebDesign.com ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by LSW at Feb 24, 2006 11:26:51 AM] |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Nov 27, 2003 Post Count: 6287 Status: Offline |
I was thinking CSS support. Windows:
Mac:
Linux:
I have listed those that I am aware of in My Big browser Thread ---------------------------------------- Gu.aal kwsh� yak'�i it�akw ijeet wugood�k LSW-WebDesign.com ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by LSW at Feb 24, 2006 11:39:10 AM] |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Mar 24, 2005 Post Count: 3000 Status: Offline |
Regarding browsers an Operating systems... The only restrictions I'm aware of are Konquerer for linux only, Safari and Camino for Mac only, and IE6.0 for win98 ++. I think Win 95 and NT only allow up to IE5.5. I had a recent project that specified compatiblity for: Mac IE5.2, Win 5.5 through 6.0, and NS7. I think the mac IE spec was included b/c that's what the graphic designer has.... LOL! <shaking my headback and forth...> ---------------------------------------- "The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo Save the developers<!> Maine Webworks ---------------------------------------- [Edit 1 times, last edit by shelfimage at Feb 24, 2006 11:54:26 AM] |
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Advanced Member USA Joined: Mar 24, 2005 Post Count: 3000 Status: Offline |
The conditional statments/comments to make the site in this study display correctly are: <!--[if lte IE 6]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie_style.css" /> <![endif]--> or <!--[if !IE 7]> <link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="ie_style.css" /> <![endif]--> I suggest using the first one because the second one will dismiss any future release newer than IE7, ie IE7.5 for example. Screen Shot of successful [lte IE 6] cc: ![]() - ---------------------------------------- "The art of life lies in a constant readjustment to our surroundings." -Okakura Kakuzo Save the developers<!> Maine Webworks |
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