Topic: Client Asking for Refund...

A client on a tight budget wanted to start an online store selling jewelry they already sold from their physical store.  Long story short, they hired me to modify a Joomla theme, set up VirtueMart, do everything else that needed to be done, and submit their site to search engines.  They really wanted good search engine placement but I told them there was more to it than just punching in some keywords.  I said I'd be more than willing to work on it but it would mean hiring me beyond the initial price I gave them.

Six months later, they are demanding a 50 percent refund because they claim their search engine placement is poor due to me.  They believe they should have that money back to hire someone who can improve their placement.

What would you do?

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Did you pay them "beyond the initial price" - and was there any kind of possible refund discussed that was connected to placement?

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

No, they never paid me anything beyond the initial price though I did a few "favors" for them since then.  Nothing I charged for. 

It was well established in the beginning that I was hired to get their store up and running, submit the site to search engines, and ask for a link exchange with a list of sites they gave me.  The problem is there was no contract written up for this deal.  A mistake I have learned from.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

As you know, it's not an exact science. You did exactly what they asked. You did what they paid you for. Tell then NO, and that's the way it is!

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

jsarber wrote:

No, they never paid me anything beyond the initial price though I did a few "favors" for them since then.  Nothing I charged for. 

It was well established in the beginning that I was hired to get their store up and running, submit the site to search engines, and ask for a link exchange with a list of sites they gave me.  The problem is there was no contract written up for this deal.  A mistake I have learned from.

It would help if you had a contract, but I think you are within your rights tell tell them no. You did what you agreed to do. As long as you specifically told them that you couldn't guarantee search engine placement (I ALWAYS specify that, just in case) I think you are in the clear.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Lawyer

But I agree, in my position, no, they wanted and original design and I delivered. Search engine placement is as much content as design, maybe they need to improve their content.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

In that case, give them back 50% of what they paid you for the SEO Placement

Who has a calculator - what's 50% of ZERO again?

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

I'd bill'em. They want a refund, so write up an invoice that details what you have done (include all the free favors) and bill them. Be sure to add in what those favors was worth to you show on paper that they have already received a discounted job and demand your payment.

Non negotiable non refundable.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

JBall wrote:

I'd bill'em. They want a refund, so write up an invoice that details what you have done (include all the free favors) and bill them. Be sure to add in what those favors was worth to you show on paper that they have already received a discounted job and demand your payment.

Non negotiable non refundable.

No..no..nooo. You just can't do that. This will certainly upset the customer in which they might start giving bad reports to friends, associates, etc.  He can state all the work he has done but he has already done the work with the agreed price.  You just can't come back months later and say.."Oh...by the way, I forgot to bill you for this stuff." especially if the contract/agreement has been completed.

I do not know the full extent of this store using Joomla but if you are not careful you can leave many remnants of the word "Joomla" or credits which could appear in Google/Yahoo. This also includes any components or modules.

As a web designer, I would provide your client all the resources they need to help improved their sites ranking. The way I do it is that I have a set of url bookmarks to SEO sites that has tips, tutorials and even software download. I just zip the bookmarks together and email them to my clients.  Normally this should be done when the project begins but sometime it helps to send them at the end of the project as well.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

OK. I might not "demand payment" But I would still hand them an invoice listing the work done both charged and free. along with newseed's idea about the list of helpful sites. It maybe the wrong thing to do but, I'll be damned if I'd give any kind of refund to a client I've already done favors for. No. Nope, Nada.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

LSW wrote:

Lawyer

But I agree, in my position, no, they wanted and original design and I delivered. Search engine placement is as much content as design, maybe they need to improve their content.

That was actually something I explained to them in detail at the beginning.  I knew from my own experience that more content equals a better chance of search placement simple because there is more content for search engines to "choose" from.  They have very little content and I explained that would be a factor.

Honestly, I know what this is all about.  They are not generating the sales they wanted from their online store and, unfortunately, they have chosen me to blame for it.  I can hardly see how it's my fault that we're in an economic recession and people are not searching for or buying blueberry-themed jewelry.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

jsarber wrote:

blueberry-themed jewelry.

lol lol lol lol

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Agreed.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

tongue Aw, jeez...

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Well - I googled 'blueberry themed jewelry and got 2 hits - some other site and yours.  And when I go to yours, where I find their site, I notice that it's all images - and not a thing for search engines to find.  Even that short little paragraph, which is the only thing that's left after I disable images does not have any good and relevant key words in it. 

I hate to say it, but as a webdesigner, even if we're not SEO masters, we need to be aware of the basic SEO requirements and design with them in mind - I think the site is beautiful, but for search engines it's useless.  I mean with 2 results for that key word - they should be nr. 3 the least.

Now as to who would ever have the urge to google 'blueberry themed jewelry ---- there I have no answers.

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Re: Client Asking for Refund...

What terms do they want? Jewelry and they want to be Nr. 1?  Hardly and they have to pay Google big bucks. So are their expectations even reasonable for the keywords they are checking for?  I have no idea where I am with web design, but look for LSW and I am usually page 1.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

That wasn't the original intention of the homepage.  It originally went straight to the Joomla store.  A graphic designer did that homepage graphic and asked me to make it the index page after the fact.  The cost to replicate his graphic in a web-friendly page was too much additional cost for them.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Well, they signed their own death warrant.

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Re: Client Asking for Refund...

OH well, sounds like it is on them again and I would say no for all the more reason is a nice diplomatic letter explaining the problems and what needs to be done to improve it.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Well, I looked at that site and yes it looks nice but Thelma hit the nail on the head that it is severely lacking content.

A picture is worth a thousand words to human eyes but it's worth nothing to search engines.

If you have given them this information at the beginning or even during the project and they didn't want to foot the bill to do the SEO then you can wipe your hands clean of their  negligence.

For any serious business owner that wants to sell online needs to make some kind of commitment to SEO whether they hire someone or they do it themselves.

Last edited by newseed (2009-02-13 12:08:47)

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Thanks for the input.  I have tried to practice as good of ethics in business as possible and felt I was right in telling them "no" on this matter.  I just wondered your thoughts.  Thanks.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

jsarber wrote:

Thanks for the input.  I have tried to practice as good of ethics in business as possible and felt I was right in telling them "no" on this matter.  I just wondered your thoughts.  Thanks.

This is the part of business that no one likes but it's going to happen. Most can usually be worked out but their are some that are just a pain to deal with.

What you can do is offer up a suggestion on how to get more content on their website. They won't admit that they made a mistake but sometimes if you give them a good example on how to get started by demonstrating how to do one of the pages you might end up with a satisfied client and possibly generated more revenue in the process.

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Re: Client Asking for Refund...

Always trust your gut. You will have clients you cannot make happy or expect allot but want to pay little. You have to be able to say no if your gut is uneasy. Bad clients can ruin your love of web design and you will not do your best work for them so maybe hurt your Portfolio. Always be ready to say no. Those bad clients are never worth the money they pay.

Re: Client Asking for Refund...

In addition to my last post, one thing you should always include in your contract/agreements is that you should make the url seo friendly.  You can find several good SEF mods for Joomla that will work. If you are using Joomla 1.5, you can simply turn on the rewrite and modify a line or two of the .htaccess file.

I think it will be good business for you to offer that to them free of charge. Still, they need content and that's their responsibility.