How important is web standards and clean xhtml in the real world?
With all these Web standards zealots running around proudly placing W3C validation buttons on their websites, you have to ask yourself:
Does anyone really care about web standards, clean code (xhtml, html and css) in the real world?
THE SAD TRUTH
Only in large companies (if you’re lucky,) and government might you find someone that may care. Sorry zealots, you can take down your little W3C buttons now …
The web design community codes itself into an academic dreamland sometimes. That’s why I attacked the web-standards-movement in the past … the leaders were misleading the ‘faithful’ down the path to the unemployment line.
PAYING WEB DESIGN, IS ABOUT BUSINESS
At the end of the day, all this web design junk is there to do, is to get out a message.
As for business, they don’t care about code validation and other nerd stuff that the web design zealots have fooled everyone into believing really means anything in the real world.
A LIGHT AT THE END OF THE TUNNEL FOR CODE-MONKEYS
But in the programming world, code quality moves to the front – well near the front of the line. This is because good code means faster more adaptable software – this has a bottom-line ($) affect.
… On the other hand:
Clean, standards compliant web design code (html/xhtml and css,) does not have any financial impact for most sites:
In the days of super cheap hosting and bandwidth, saving a few kilobytes on a web page amounts to nothing – most of us are not building sites that have millions of page-views!
So if you’re a frustrated web designer who is obsessed with code, you should get into php programming!
By Stefan Mischook
www.killersites.com
www.killerphp.com
November 24th, 2006 at 10:01 am
Commercial pressures mean that being 100% web standards compliant is practicable.
In fact, it’s often an inhibitor to innovation.
As a web designer, I concentrate getting that 80% right that ticks the main boxes and fulfils the main agenda…
November 24th, 2006 at 12:25 pm
There are a few things to consider here –
1) If your code does validate you have at least verified that you did a commendable job and understand some basic principles.
2) Compliance to standards could prove to be useful in cross browser compatibility – especially with the mobile device access.
3) For sales efforts it can set you apart from your competition.
It really takes minimal effort to achieve validation and it certainly cannot hurt your website. The validated websites which we have created have done better in search engine rankings than previous (older) unvalidated sites. I agree fully that a website’s primary purpose is sales and marketing but why not go the extra distance in your development. Moving forward I can’t imagine over 10% of our website projects not being validated. The results so far have been encouraging and we feel good about our products.
November 24th, 2006 at 3:39 pm
I tend to agree though try to maintain the standard on my own site. Customers are really not interested as long as the site works, is listed on Google and comes in at the right price. The last point is possibly the most important in the commercial development world. It is a very difficult sell, trying to explain to a paying client that you can meet standards by increasing the price by ten or twenty percent but they will see no difference when browsing.
Also, customers tend to break the standards themselves once they get their hands on a CMS.
November 24th, 2006 at 3:50 pm
“Also, customers tend to break the standards themselves once they get their hands on a CMS.”
Customers tend to break the sites period!
When it comes to web design, I think the hierarchy of client concerns are:
1. Price
2. Design – has to look good.
3. Usability – though they have no idea what usability is, they just want the site to navigate easily.
4. Google position. If you can make a site rank on Google quickly (even with obscure search terms,) you will be god.
Notice that code that validates is not on the list.
Stefan
November 24th, 2006 at 8:59 pm
These same folk (client) who don’t care about good design practices are now complaining about the SEO they’ve hired, who have taken ‘em to the cleaners.
There is NO W3C for SEO. It’s an open Snake Elixir Oil market and cashing in quite nicely.
However, there IS a W3C for web design (which extends far beyond pretty pictures). If nothing else, that in itself is a good gauge to check one’s web designer without the web designer even having to say that he/she is valid, a professional. Tidy HTML and W3C validator says it for them (and we both know that these are but only 1 of many tests of good design practices).
As well, good design practices by a professional web designer cuts a good percentage of the client’s payout for SEO. If anything, valid web designers don’t need to charge EXTRA for … for web design. It’s automatic, done blind-folded, with both hands tied behind. Only unlearned invalid designers have to charge EXTRA.
This web page, here,
http://www.killersites.com/blog/2006/web-standards-real-world/
validates according to Tidy HTML. That wasn’t hard, was it? And I’ll bet you’re makin a buck or two, hey?
PHP is easy. That is why much of the php script we find across the W.W.W. is full of holes. PHP wanna-be web designers typically forget all about security. That’s your Mama’s identity being ripped~!
I used to design bridges, nuke plants, and the like. Maybe in my next life I’ll design them without standards. I wonder who would b*tch first?
My experience with (business) clients revamps your priority list:
1) Makes Money (implies good web design practices)
2) Found Easily (implies good web design practices)
3) Works Easily (implies good web design practices)
4) Return Customers (implies good web design practices)
Notice that ‘lookin good’ ain’t in the TOP list (no one BUYS NOW caused solely by a pretty picture)
Notice ‘Good web design practices’ hits everyone of the TOP list.
Notice the definition of business “to make money with the intent to profit” is #1
Being found extends FAR beyond the search engines. SEs are only one aspect of being found and you know what the others are, hey?
Kind Regards and keep up the good work,
Al Toman
November 24th, 2006 at 9:21 pm
Good article Stef.
I’m self confessed standards nerd. I believe they can make a site easier to maintain, more usable, more accessible, help with SEO and cross browser compatability. And that there’s far more to standards than running your code through a validator to make sure it’s error free. It’s possible to write total garbage that will pass.
But when I see a site that has those buttons displayed I wonder why. What’s the point? If I’m Joe Public looking for a site where I can get blue widgets, what does something called valid xhtml 1.1 have to do that – it means nothing to me. And they usually link to the W3C site. What’s the point of a link to a site that has nothing to do with what I’m looking for that I don’t understand. I don’t care… I need blue widgets.
Clients don’t care either, nor should they, web development is not their field. If you asked a client to list their top 20 concerns instead of just four, code that validates still wouldn’t be on the list. Valid code and standards compliance are things they’ve never heard of.
If you’re using standards compliance as a selling point for your services, take a course in PR or hire a marketing expert. Because the only people that care are other nerds.
* Riiiiinnnnng *
Client: Hello, is this Standards Web Design?
Mr. Standards: Yes.
Client: I’m thinking of putting up a web site for my company.
Mr. Standards: Great! We can build you a site that’s standard compliant using valid (x)html, CSS linked to your web pages with external style sheets to keep the structure and style of the site completely separate. Any scripting required will be based on the DOM and also be kept separate from the content and structure. Our mark will use semantically correct coding and…. Hello, Hello?
Colleague: What happened?
Mr. Standards: I think he fell asleep, I hear snoring.
November 25th, 2006 at 12:24 am
I’m not saying you should not care about clean code etc …
I’m saying that there has been too much importance associated with it … it does not pay the bills to be anal about code.
That said, if code correctness does not get in the way of good design, then do it – I do.
But don’t forget, clean code does not have much impact in the real world when it comes to getting web design jobs or even producing a highly successful websites.
… There are many successful websites that don’t follow the Web standards, do not validate and heaven forbid, they use tables for page level layout!
November 25th, 2006 at 11:36 am
I really am a prospective client. I am a bit different though. I am trying to do some homework on the type of design architecture I should have to support what I want. I want quality and am willing to find out what that means. Decades of business experience has taught me that.
I am not a coder, never have been. But with Stephan’s positive and marvelous videos, I found someone to explain what I really need for the type of websites that will produce the information I am selling.
I figured out, on my own, that updating static pages over and over wasn’t going to make it. A dynamic website is the only answer to the need I have (I won’t go into that here).
I’d sit down and learn HTML and then PHP if I thought that I could really get through MySQL.
With that said as a basis for what a customer may want, I agree with the relative ignorance of 99.99% of clients about ‘the standards’. As Mr. Toman said, it’s a ‘yada yada’ thing.
BUT, what’s important to me is MY standards. And in business, a lot of what you must focus on to succeed, is what the customer wants, even though they may not be able to explain it, describe it or map out a design for you. You should expect them to think that “they’ll know it when they see it.”
Don’t begrudge ignorance. Make it work for you. It is your advantage. Build the smoothest website and build your rep. Fix or tweak that customer’s site when they need it for a nominal fee or for free. They’ll brag on you, believe me. If they need SEO, tell them that quality content is everything and SHOW them… that is, help them keep all content relevant to their market. Perhaps find them a local writer to spruce up their content. Become the ‘go to’ person (whether they show gratitude or not).
You web design people are the mechanics of this new world that business people are venturing into without any real understanding of what it takes to be successful on the internet marketing stage. Yes, totally clueless, they are. (I’m not totally clueless since I’m here!
)
Don’t try to get the maximum dollar for your work on the first experience with them. You MUST teach them how to keep their site updated so they can eventually figure out that they should be using you to monitor and manage their sites, instead of trying to do it themselves. Essentially, you must make yourself indispensible to that customer.
Leave your arrogance about how great you are at home. Listen to your customer or prospect. Be willing to re-work someone else’s botched job without talking bad about the job they did. Just fix it and become appreciated. Remember you are trying to become that customer’s mechanic, not his business advisor. Be the mechanic. Be the person who gladly accepts that customer’s return for an oil change every 3,000 miles. They aren’t going to come in every month to have you reuild their engine!
When they trust you, they will want additions and other tweaks. Or, more SEO, or additional product/service launches, etc. An example, I had my car towed to my mechanic’s shop. It was stone dead. We had taken our car to him for a few months and he seemed to do good work. We were new in town and people said he was good and honest. So the tow driver drops the car in the parking lot and our mechanic comes out to look at it. He opens the hood, and has me crank the engine. Nothing. He quickly checks the battery. It’s fine. Then he reaches over and does something, then has me crank it again. It turns over and runs great. He says to turn it off, goes into the shop and returns with a length of hose and in seconds says to crank it again. It runs. He smiles and says “Have a good day. It was a vacuum hose that was loose, so I put a new one on to be sure it won’t happen again.” “No charge!” Hecould have told me that it would cost $500 to fix and Iwouldn’t have known any better. Do you think that I have ever taken a car of mine to anyone else? No, not once, in 17 years. I have never been disappointed either. I bought the man, not his free hose or reasonable prices. Not his ready smile or good personality. I buy his perfectionist concern for me, his customer, every time I return for the smallest thing or a major repair.
He and I have 300,000 miles on that car. Yes, he and I. I keep it serviced even when it’s a hassle to make time for it. He makes time to service it, even when it’s a hassle for him because he is so busy with fellow customers who feel the same way I do.
Be that mechanic and you won’t have time to post to Stephan’s blog! LOL
Honestly people, I really do appreciate the time and effort it takes to do what you do. I also appreciate the time and committment it took to become as good as you are.
Because of that respect, I offer you this advice from my side of the fence. It will affect you and your business … dramatically. Whether you fully believe this or not, keep this in the back of your mind for the next two years. A r e c e s s i o n is coming and very, very soon. It will last a full two years. No, it’s not the end of the world as wehave known it. But it is going to shock most people. You want to know why, I’m sure. Forget why! Prepare for it and then use it to your advantage.
What do you do in a recession? Become a better mechanic by picking up expertise in SEO or expertise in internet marketing, or email marketing or copywriting, or advertising … or maybe AJAX or whatever. Become a better ‘go to’ guy or gal. Don’t be discouraged and fall for the blame game of who’s to blame for the recession. Recessions happen all the time and they are unavoidable. Economies are filled with people. And like people, economies breathe in and out. A recession is a breathing out activity. You can call it cyclical if you want.
I can promise you one thing, though. The better and faster mechanics will be so well prepared for what is coming after the recession. You can’t imagine how incredible the economies of this world will explode. It will last for at least 4 years and possibly longer. It’s a once in a lifetime opportunity. (look, this is my business. I know this like Stephan knows how to teach coding to newbies … maybe better!
)
Prepare for it. Dominate your market. Meanwhile, be frugal and be honest. Be of service with a great attitude. Fake it if you have to. People won’t forget you.
btw, I have read Steph’s forum for many months. I have 4 excellent books on MySQL and 4 on PHP. These all showed me that I need to leave the web designing to the pros, the mechanics. I just need to find one that doesn’t want 15,000 bucks to do a scalable, reproduceable and duplicatable website! I will need 80 of them! Wish me luck, just as I wish you all the best.
Business is about only two things: #1. creating profits by creating ecstatic customers who become your missionaries. #2. repeat #1 over and over.
Respectfully,
Prospect
December 1st, 2006 at 9:30 am
As Stef knows I am a fully-paid-up-card-carrying-standards-flag-waver but I do agree that having a badge on your site promoting clean code and linking to the W3C will never get you a client and may confuse/annoy clients if you put it on their site. That is not to say that clean XHTML and CSS is not important in the real world – It’s just not important to your client.
They come to you to do a job and writing code that’s clean, validates to the standard and works on all devices that are used to view it is a given. It’s an un-written part of what they are paying you to deliver.
Using the age old car analogy – I pay a bit more to get a car serviced by the Ford dealer as I know their mechanics have all been trained and use the official parts and tools. I don’t need a sticker on my bumper every time the do something on my car.
Write clean valid code (whatever that code is) because you are a professional and that’s just what professionals do. It will also make the web a cleaner, nicer place to be
December 6th, 2006 at 1:11 am
I just do not get this attitude…
I consider myself a professional, therefore I wish to deliver a quality site and that means standards and validation for me. How can one consider themseves as supplying the customer the best possible site if it is full of errors, bad practice and old style silliness?
Where does this idea come from that you have to charge more to code to standards? I am not picking on BlackWasp personally, but it is a prime example of a arguement I hear constantly:
“It is a very difficult sell, trying to explain to a paying client that you can meet standards by increasing the price by ten or twenty percent but they will see no difference when browsing.”
Why is coding to standards any more expensive then coding poorly? As professionals we should be coding quality already… I would in fact think we should charge more to those who wish to force us to use poor coding habits. I just cannot imagine charging a customer more to do that which I should be doing out of honor and morals… doing the best job I can for a customer.
Standards do improve cross-browser compatibility, just look at all those web sites built for IE6 because “It is what the majority use…”, how many of those are breaking now with IE7 released? Not those using standards and tested in Firefox…
How many of you use third party scripts? How many of you have to ad images or code snipplets from third parties? How many of those do you have to recode as they are written so poorly? If they were written to standards we could just paste them in and have done with it.
You think IE does weird things with your code? Think about PDAs, Cell Phones, Portable game pads, Screenreaders and any other current and future user agents… you have no way toknow what odd things will happen to non standard code… but chances are best with standard compliant web sites… and that is of utmost importance to those with disabilities. Search Engines are blind, what is good for vision impaired users is good for SEO as well. Therefore it is going to be better for the average user as well.
Are standards the end all? No. Are they a guarantee? No. But the odds that a web site will work best when supporting standards are pretty well clear. We owe our customers the best work we can and that is not IE specific, hacked for CSS sites that use depreciated tags and poor practices.
I use standards and can do so in about as much time as writing poor code. I build the site validated… it will not likely stay so… but it is amatter fo pride.
January 5th, 2008 at 11:36 am
I wish people like you would get a clue. I use PHP, Java, ASP, and have NO problems making my sites 100% valid HTML or XHTML. Maybe you need to take time and learn what you’re doing. I work for a big company and have raised my concerns because other people write terrible code on the backend and frontend.
We need standards and this is what we have for now. There are more advantages of writing good code than bad code. You can call us monkeys or your other names but the bottom line is we know how to code and you don’t.
January 5th, 2008 at 1:28 pm
Mike,
I appreciate your comments. I am not against clean code, rather, this article was written at a time when code zealots were pushing the use of W3C standards code over the reality of how well the code was supported in the browsers.
… It all came down to two things for me:
1. Not using XHTML since IE6 and IE7 does not support it.
2. Not using CSS hacks but instead using IE conditional comments to get around IE’s failings.
That all said, I’ve been hand coding web sites since 1994 and have written software in about 8-9 languages .. over the years. This includes Java, PHP etc.
Stefan
May 21st, 2008 at 5:08 am
Hi Stefan,
If you make built a house you’ll hope than the plans and materials involved are great quality and that your house will long forever at least for your all life!
If you built a site, even if the “client” doesn’t get anything of your process and codes (do you with the architectural plans and professional materials?) he is willing his web site to be great using and looking, and long living cause easily updated. I know a society who paid more than euros 15000 for a Content management web site. One year later they see the technicals problems coming up as when they add content the lay out crashes and it seems to be an unsolvable problem unless they make another web site…
In all domains I like things done well and clean.
Please apologize my English, I’m French speaking.